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Operator · Operator
Edward A. Egl
Thank you, Olivia. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our third quarter 26 earnings conference call. With me this morning are Jim Fish, Chief Executive Officer; John Morris, President; David Reed, executive vice president and chief operating officer; Tara J. Hemmer, Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer. Will cover high-level financials, Joe will cover an operating overview and provide a strategic update, and David will cover the details of the financials.
Following our prepared remarks, each of these members of our leadership team will be available during the Q&A portion of the call. Before we get started, please note that we filed the Form 8-K that includes the earnings press release. It is available on our website at www.wm.com. The Form 8-K, the press release, and the schedules of the press release include important information. During the call, you will hear forward looking statements, which are based on current expectations, projections, or opinions about future periods.
All forward looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially. Of these risks and uncertainties are discussed in today's press release and in our filings with the SEC including our most recent Form 10-K and Form 10-Q. We will discuss our results in the areas of yield and volume, which unless stated otherwise, are more specifically references to internal revenue growth or IRG from yield or volume.
During the call, we will discuss operating EBITDA, which is income from operations before depreciation, depletion, amortization, and accretion. Beginning this year, landfill accretion expense was moved from operating expenses to depreciation, depletion, amortization, and accretion, to enhance comparability and better reflect operating performance. For comparability purposes, we 25 actuals have been updated to reflect that change.
Any comparisons, unless otherwise stated, will be with the prior year period. Net income, EPS, income from operations and margin, operating EBITDA and margin, operating expenses and margin, and SG&A expense and margin have been adjusted to enhance comparability by excluding certain items that management believes do not reflect our fundamental business performance or results of operations. These adjusted measures, in addition to free cash flow, are non GAAP measures.
Please refer to the earnings press release and tables, which can be found on the company's website at www.wm.com for reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP measures and additional information about our use of non GAAP measures. This call is being recorded and will be available 24 hours a day beginning approximately 1PM eastern time today. Hear a replay of the call, access the WM website at www.investors.wm.com.
Time sensitive information provided during today's call, which is occurring on October 28, 2026, may no longer be accurate at the time of a replay. Any redistribution, retransmission, or rebroadcast of this call in any form without the express written consent of WM is prohibited. Now I will turn the call over to WM CEO, Jim Fish.
James C. Fish Jr.
Okay. Thanks, Edward, and thank you all for joining us today. As most of you know, after concluding 10 years as CEO, I will be retiring in early January. At that time, John Morris will become WM's new CEO. John's promotion is the result of a thoughtful, deliberate succession planning process by our board of directors, and I have the utmost confidence that John is the right person to lead WM into its next chapter and build on the momentum that we have established.
Looking at the results, we are right on track to achieve our guidance for the full year revenue and free cash flow expected to finish at the high end of our ranges. During my tenure as CEO, we have achieved or beaten original operating EBITDA guidance every year except for 2020 during COVID. And we are on track to do that again this year. Taking a look at the third quarter, the company grew operating EBITDA by 5.8% grew revenue by 6.3%, continue to reduce our SG&A down to 9.3%, maintained operating EBITDA margins at 31% in the face of strong headwinds from fuel, and grew free cash flow by 20%.
And lastly, I am pleased that our health care solutions business is in such a good place, have 2 years of hard work on the integration. For the first time since the acquisition, revenue was up year over year, and we grew operating EBITDA 33%. I believe this is going to prove to be 1 of the best acquisitions in the history of the company. I wanna finish my brief remarks today with a thank you and a farewell it is been a tremendous privilege to be in this role for 10 years at this great company and to work with such a fantastic team of 60 thousand people.
You are all truly amazing. I want to say to our many investors and to each of you on the sell side who cover our stock, how much I have appreciated all of the support you have given me over the years, Your questions have been fair. Your coverage has been comprehensive and intelligent, and your faith in us has been unwavering. And I wanted to tell a quick story here. When I was just coming into my CFO role, in my first investor meeting, Edward and I were out in San Francisco, and we met with Charles El-Wine at Capital World.
And in my naive way, I told him that we had a plan to get SG&A down to 11%. I think at the time, it was at 12.7%. And so Charles, in a nice way, but in a firm way, said, Jim, I know you are new in the job. And, you know, though, we have heard that from you guys for a long time. And to be honest, I do not believe you. I will believe it when I see it. And so a couple years later, when we actually did get SG&A down to 11%, I will never forget.
Charles called me, and he said, you know, Jim, I did not believe you at the time, but you did prove me wrong. Thank you for that, and great job. And I do not know whether Charles is on the call today, but I have to say that no other call from an investor meant more to me than that call that day from Charles And now that we are at 9.3% and I expect that to drop below 9% at some point down the road, I do think back on that, so I wanted to tell that story.
And then lastly, I want to tell you that I am leaving WM with tremendous confidence not only in John, but in Tara, David, the rest of the senior leadership team, and the entire leadership of WM. The company is in such a great place strategically, financially, customer wise. And when I am when I am no longer on the inside, I will have the greatest trust in this management team. I love the culture that we have built here.
At this company, and I strongly believe in the long-term strategy of the of the company. So I am truly a shareholder for the long term. it is been a joy for me to work alongside so many amazing people over these 25 years. And I look forward to supporting John and the team, through the transition and watching WM continue to create value for all of its stakeholders. And so with that, I am gonna turn the call over to John. And he can share his perspective on the quarter. On our outlook, and on the opportunities ahead for WM.
John J. Morris Jr.
Thanks, Jim. it is certainly an honor to have the opportunity to lead WM I appreciate the confidence that you and the board have placed in me. Over the years, I have experienced firsthand the strong foundation we have built centered around our people, culture, and strategy. I look forward to building on that foundation and driving opportunities to deliver value for our customers, employees, communities, and our shareholders.
So now let's turn to our performance in the quarter and our outlook for the business. WM delivered another quarter of solid operating and financial performance. Operating EBITDA grew 5.8%, driven by strong price-to-cost spread in the collection and disposal business. And growing contributions from our health care and sustainability businesses. Our results reflect the earnings power of our diversified business, as growth came from every 1 of our operating segments with operating EBITDA increases of more than 30% in each of the health care and sustainability segments in the quarter.
In collection and disposal, disciplined pricing and technology enabled cost optimization continued to drive results. Core price again was strong at 5.8% for the quarter. Despite a 70-basis-point headwind from higher fuel costs, total company operating expenses remained below 60% of revenue, demonstrating the increasingly important role of technology combined with process improvements is playing in sustaining our performance and helping us to structurally lower our cost to serve.
Growing the collection and disposal business through tuck in acquisitions remains a strategic priority. We have completed $239 million of deals through the first 9 months of the year and expect to close another $140 million in the fourth quarter. Also signed a $250 million transaction that we expect to close early next year. And our pipeline remains robust, supporting continued acquisition activity into 2027. Turning to health care solutions, I am very pleased with the progress we have made in the business in the third quarter with revenue up by 3.7%, and operating EBITDA increasing 33%.
We had 2 year-end targets for the business as we exit 2026. Core price at 5.5% and SG&A of between 15%-16% of revenue. We achieved both of those targets earlier than expected with third quarter core price coming in right at 5.5% and SG&A at 15.2% of revenue. This progress reinforces our confidence that we can bring the same price and cost-discipline to health care that has driven our success in solid waste. The benefits of disciplined investment and execution are evident in our sustainability businesses.
Where the projects we brought online are increasingly contributing to revenue and earnings growth. Recycling Processing & Sales segment operating EBITDA increased 40% to $91 million in the third quarter. That strong growth reflects the benefits of our investments in our automated network as well as year-over-year improvements on our blended average commodity price. On the renewable energy front, we added a new renewable natural gas facility in New York during the quarter, marking the 18th facility completed since 2022.
Segment operating EBITDA grew more than 35%, despite slightly lower RIN pricing as compared to the prior year. With more than 90% of our expected 2026 production and about 40% of our 2027 production is already contracted, we are also improving earnings visibility and reducing commodity price exposure. As we move through the fourth quarter and prepare for 2027, our priorities remain clear. Maintain disciplined price-to-cost spread, continue embedding technology and process improvement across our operations, execute additional tuck in M&A, and capture the earnings and free cash flow benefits of our strategic investments.
Our focus on these priorities gives us confidence in our ability to deliver strong results in 2027. Before I close, I want to thank our employees for their dedication and commitment they bring to serving our customers and communities every day. Our performance is a direct result of their hard work and strong execution, and I deeply appreciate all they do. With that, I will turn the call over to David.
David L. Reed
Thanks, John, and thank you all for joining us. We are pleased to report another quarter of growth across each of our operating segments. The breadth of this performance underscores the durability of our business model. And the consistent execution of our teams. In collection and disposal, favorable price-to-cost spread added 40 basis points of underlying margin expansion. Health care solutions contributed another 30 basis points from cost management and pricing growth as we continue to realize the benefits from the integration and begin to see pricing traction.
These core business contributions were offset primarily by a couple of headwinds. 40 basis points from higher fuel cost and 40 basis points from increased risk management costs within our corporate and other segment. Even with those headwinds, the underlying performance of the business remains strong and demonstrated our ability to protect profitability while continuing to invest for long-term growth. Turning to revenue.
Strong pricing results were led by the commercial line of business. Collection and disposal volume was modestly negative primarily reflecting continued intentional residential losses which have improved each quarter this year, and the national account broker losses in commercial that we discussed last quarter. Overall, our core price and yield are tracking to the high end of our guidance with volume still expected to be about -1% for the year or negative 50 basis points when excluding wildfire cleanup volumes from the prior year.
Our energy surcharge program continues to effectively recover higher direct and indirect fuel costs in both the solid waste and health care businesses. Even as diesel spiked to record highs in the quarter. Finally, higher recycling and renewable energy volumes from completed growth projects and year-over-year increases in recycling commodity prices added to the top line. Turning to SG&A, expenses improved 70 basis points to 9.3% of revenue in the third quarter.
This improvement reflects disciplined cost management across the company together with continued synergy capture from the health care solutions business. As John mentioned, health care solutions SG&A was 15.2% of revenue in the third quarter. Reaching our year end target ahead of schedule and representing a 190-basis-point improvement compared to the prior year. This reinforces our confidence in the integration and earnings potential of the business as we continue to streamline support functions, and scale the platform.
Our earnings growth continues to translate into robust cash generation. During the first 9 months of the year, operating cash flow increased 12% compared to the same period in 2025. As planned, capital spending declined by more than 17% from the prior year. Reflecting normalized investment in collection vehicles, and lower sustainability capital as we approach the completion of our planned investment program. Together, these results drove free cash flow of over $3 billion, up more than 42% through the first 9 months of the year.
With operating EBITDA conversion of more than 50% or 50%. We remain focused on converting earnings growth into cash efficiently, funding the investments that support safe, dependable operations and attractive long-term returns. We allocated more than 90% of that free cash flow to shareholder returns during the first 9 months of the year. Repurchasing $1.58 billion of our shares and paying $1.14 billion in dividends.
That balanced approach reflects our confidence in the business our commitment to returning capital to shareholders while maintaining the financial flexibility to invest in our strategic priorities. We also remained within our target leverage of 2.5 to 3x ending the quarter at 2.92x. Our strong cash generation disciplined capital allocation, and continued focus on the balance sheet position us well to create sustained value.
Finally, let me bring the pieces of our outlook together as we look to the balance of 2026. Strong pricing, cost optimization, and robust cash generation through the first 9 months position us well to deliver our full year outlook. We expect operating EBITDA to be within the guidance range we established at the beginning of the year. And we anticipate revenue and free cash flow results to be at the high end of our prior ranges.
Our expectations include full year SG&A, of about 10% of revenue, reflecting cost discipline across the organization and the success of our integration in health care solutions. Overall, the resilience of the solid waste business continued progress in health care solutions and growing contributions from our sustainability investments, reinforce our confidence as we close out 2026 and build a strong foundation for continued growth. In closing, I want to thank the entire WM team for their hard work throughout the quarter We entered the final months of the year with strong momentum, clear priorities, and confidence in our ability to finish 2026 on a high note. With that, Olivia, let's open the line for questions.
Questions & answers
Operator · Operator
Analyst
Q1
Hey. Good morning.
John J. Morris Jr.
Good morning.
James C. Fish Jr.
Good morning.
David L. Reed
Good morning. Hey, Jim. it is been a pleasure. Wishing you definitely all the best and John, big congrats. But, hey, David. Just appreciate the guidance color, but I was hoping for maybe a little more color just on the Q4 EBITDA shaping. I mean, the range is still, call it, a $100 million at the EBITDA line. I mean, we typically see a slight step down in margin into Q4. Is that what we should expect? And would we maybe be shading towards the lower end on EBITDA for Q4?
Sure. I can give you some color here. You know, we are obviously very pleased with the results, through year-to-date. And fourth quarter should be consistent with the results we posted all year. And note that similar to last year, we did have improving margins sequentially throughout the year. And we expect our best performance from a margin perspective in Q4 But having said that, if you think about the margin impact of fuel this year, which we are assuming is about a 40 basis point impact, Our year over year margin comparison will likely be a bit lower than the fourth quarter of 2025, all else equal.
So that probably helps give you a little bit of color. And then, you know, in terms of a couple of things to. just to keep an eye out for in terms of what would progress that performance up from there is really if you think about we do have sequential improvement in our renewable energy business from Q3 to Q4. That will happen as most of our shortfall in RNG production related to start up activity that we alluded to last quarter actually occurred in the third quarter.
So you will see a pickup in the fourth quarter. But then if you think about our sustained strength in our pricing program, both in solid waste and in health care, along with any improvement in the volume landscape, particularly things like special waste. That would aid our relative performance And then finally, the last thing I would point out is just obviously any incremental strength in recycling commodity prices would further improve our Q4 results towards or above the midpoint Okay.
Okay. that is helpful. Yeah. Yep. Go ahead. I am sorry. Back, I would just say, you know, if we think about the guidance range in general, given where we started at the beginning of the year and the moving pieces the dynamics, we are definitely, you know, impressed with the resiliency and the strength of the business. Yeah.
Analyst
Q1
Okay. Perfect. And then, John, I think you mentioned that risk was a sizable headwind. So, 1, to be clear, was that in corporate? And, 2, was it accident or insurance premium related, or what exactly is that? And then is that something that lingers into Q4 and into 2027, or how should we think about that?
John J. Morris Jr.
So, Tyler, it is a good question. I would tell you first and foremost, it is not related to our safety performance. It has more to do with, sort of an out of period adjustment that happened in Q3. But if you look at our safety statistics and performance. That is not what is driving it. In fact, across the broader business, including our health care business, we are seeing a nice improvement in our recordable injury and our accident rate. it is not that, but I will let David comment on the actual number for the quarter.
David L. Reed
Yeah. There. there is an element that is in corporate and other and then an element outside of that. But for the company in general, it is about a $63 million increase year over year for Q3. The higher risk costs were attributed to 3 items. The first of which is we had a negative impact associated with our third quarter actuarial adjustment. it is always a little bit of a wild card, but I would point out that you know, this follows 6 consecutive quarters of positive variances against our actuarial report.
And so as John alluded to, this should. It should not be construed as a trend or a fundamental change in terms of the frequency or activity of events. Secondly, we had some cost estimate increases associated with a few large loss claims that were accrued during the third quarter. And then and then third, we had a tough comp versus last year where we had a, insurance recovery in the third quarter of last year. The expense was higher than we expected, but we do not expect that to have an outsized negative impact as we carry forward And just Actually, pilot error stuff.
John J. Morris Jr.
1 important point. About $40 million of that was in corporate and other. and $23 million was in collection and disposal. So that is something that is impacting the collection and disposal growth. Okay. Excellent. Perfect. Great color. And then just last 1 real quick. Just wanna make sure that I am reading the release correctly, which is always a little risky. But I think health care revenue was up maybe 4%. If I look at core price and volume, it only contributed maybe $1 million of revenue growth.
And I think, John, you said that core pricing was up 5. So were volumes down about 5? It seems that maybe most of that 4% was from fuel surcharges. But I guess regardless, it seems like good SG&A, management and the core pricing is what is driving the EBITDA there. Just any color there would be helpful. Yeah. I think you hit us. Some of the of the big pieces of that, we are really proud about where core prices at 5.5 percent.
We said a handful of quarters ago, I think I said at this point, that will approximate what we do with the solid waste business. Had targeted to be at 5.5 at the end of the year. We are there at the end of Q3. SG&A, we said 15% to 16% at the end of the year. We are closing on 15% at the end of Q3, so really good story there. I think the EBITDA comment you heard from Jim and from myself at over 30% improvement, shows that we are taking a lot of the.
What we would call the WMA and working on price cost spread and whatnot. There are still some volume headwinds that we have talked about. What I would tell you, Tyler, is when you look at the trends, I am not putting a stake in the ground to say when they are gonna get positive, but I will tell you both on the secure document side and on the health care side, we are seeing improving trends as we go into 2027. And lastly, there was some tailwind too from the fuel side on.
In the health care business. But overall, you know, it is. As Jim mentioned, it is been 2 years of hard work. And I feel like we are really starting to, you know, hit our stride here in terms of what it is doing for the business from a segment perspective and also what it is doing on the other side of the fence if you will, with regard to the benefits, on the core solid waste business.
Analyst
Q1
Okay. Perfect. Excellent. Thank you, guys.
Operator · Operator
Jerry Revich
Q2
Yes. Hi. Good morning, everyone. and good day. Jim and John, congratulations. Jim, I think the stock is up 6x since you were appointed CFO. A really fantastic performance by the team.
James C. Fish Jr.
Thank you.
Jerry Revich
Q2
I want to ask you, in terms of we had some lumpier costs this quarter. Obviously, risk costs can move around on us. As you folks think about pricing heading into 2027, Are you thinking about pricing for potential additional 1-off risks? Should we expect 2027 to be an outsized year of the price cost spread for you folks given some of the variability that we see here.
David L. Reed
Jerry, the 1 area that we are really focused on is landfill and transportation pricing. We think that we have an opportunity if you look at where our post collection assets are and how critical an advantage they are within the network, And, also, we are experiencing some increased landfill operating costs, and we expect those to persist. A great example of that is in California where there is new legislation that will require enhanced monitoring and some other things that will flow.
And we know that we can pass along these costs through pricing and leverage that. So as we look to 2027 and beyond,, we are going to look to continue to enhance our landfill and transfer station pricing. Super.
James C. Fish Jr.
Thank you, Jerry.
Jerry Revich
Q2
And then, can I ask in terms of, the update on the RNG development plans, it looks like those are coming along nicely? You know, D3 RIN prices, obviously, a bit softer recently. Can you just talk about directionally the incremental earnings that you are expecting 2027 versus 2026. I know you will give us a wholesome update in about 3 months, but I am wondering based on what you folks have been able to put into service, how does the growth 2027 versus 2026 compare to what you folks had laid out, maybe 6 months ago?
David L. Reed
Sure. When we look at the renewable energy business, what we reflect on is that we are through so much of the hard things. You know, we have all of these plants constructed, 18 of them online., We will have another 1 come online in Q4, and the last 1 will come online in early Q1 of 2027. We have learned a lot of lessons along the way on what it takes to start these up, and we have also gotten through a lot of the pipeline issues that we referenced that impacted really Q3 of this year.
The other thing that we have demonstrated is our ability to navigate pricing. We had given a outlook of $26 as a long term number. This year, we should land a little bit higher than that, more like $27,, and that price impact from a flow through perspective is being impacted by lower production, which we have already talked about. So we are pleased with the progress, the rollover impact we are going to see increased EBITDA from, these plants, those came online in 2026 and also in 2027.
And we last thing I will say is we gave this framework of 80, 40, 2020 to have 40% of our volume locked up for next year, and we are at that number today. We feel very confident about our ability to hit the $26 number We will give a little bit more color on the EBITDA ramp in early 2027.
Jerry Revich
Q2
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Toni Kaplan
Q3
Thanks so much. I was hoping you could update us on some of the volume trends in the core business, including particularly the intentional shedding in residential? Are we through with that at this point, or is that going to continue?
John J. Morris Jr.
Yes. Good morning, Toni. Thanks for the question. For the full year, said we will be about a 1% decline in volume or about 50 basis points if you take out the wildfire comp year over year. Your question, though, I would tell you starting with residential, we are pleased with what we are seeing, which is what we told you folks is in the second half of the year, we would start to see this trend towards positive. And so while we are -3.5 year to date, we are -2.6 for the quarter.
And so we are tracking along. What I would also tell you is if you look at the core price yield and revenue build for residential, we are up about $40 million just by in revenue. Despite the despite the volume loss. So we are tracking the right way there. We have said, you know, again, not putting a stake in the ground on when it is gonna go positive, but we feel good about the trend going into 2027 To continue on volume, if you look at our industrial roll off, it was flat slightly positive, which is frankly what we have been seeing through the year. that is probably a line of business that has some indication of what is going on in the broader economy, in particular, around construction.
So even though that is been a headwind on a construction and disposal volumes, we are pleased that our roll off volume has held up. That tells you about the rest of the industrial line for us. Commercial down about 1.3%,, which was slightly more negative than what we printed in Q2. I would tell you, it is really 2 major things. it is 1 is when we talked about some national account broker decisions that we made last year that we should lap right around the end of Q1.
And then a little bit of pressure on the SMB business. But I would tell you we are, you know, construction and housing are doing what they are doing. it is not a total surprise that we are not seeing the same strength in the business formation. What I would tell you, though, is some of the metrics we keep an eye on increases and decreases, whether it is our churn rate, our ability to get pricing, and commercial. Even in this high fuel environment, we are seeing, no wavering in that. In fact, we have seen some positive trends there in net of these 2 bullet points in commercial.
Toni Kaplan
Q3
that is great. And shifting to technology investments, hoping you could just give us some color on the benefits you have been seeing from maybe the pricing program and what is sort of next on the technology side? Thanks.
Tara J. Hemmer
Sure. Obviously, technology is something that we have leaned into as a company, and we have been leaning into for some time, whether it is smart truck, that we have on our trucks that helps us look at where we might have overages. that is something that we are continuing to enhance And then on the operating side, we have technologies in play that are helping us with the health and safety of our employees, some tools in our trucks, and also routing algorithms We have something called NBO on the industrial side of the business. that is helping us route on a daily basis much more effectively and using it for, traffic conditions in real time. And we are also looking at where we might have opportunities to leverage AI in some unique applications really into helping our dispatchers.
Way I would frame our technology journey is this is something that is been a part of our fabric for several years now, and it is going to be what we lean into to continue to expand margins in that 50- to 100-basis-point range consistently over time. that is a great answer, Tara.
John J. Morris Jr.
I think the 1 thing I would add, Toni, is on the health care side too, we are in a very early innings, and we have talked about the benefits of our technology applications over top of what health care is. And it is the things Tara talked about, you know, sort of the operating expense benefits we can get from routing and the other forms of technology we are embedding in the business, you know, 1 example there is we have been upgrading a lot of the robotics capabilities inside some of the processing plants which is helping us meet some of the challenges with the broader labor market. And then I think on pricing, I mean, we have talked about this a good bit.
I think the predictive analytic analytical tools that we have built, Mike Watson and team have shown up and continue to show up in our ability to syndicate pricing across the broader business. And, frankly, you are really starting to see it show up in the health care business in the last few quarters.
Toni Kaplan
Q3
Thank you. And I will add my congratulations to Jim and John. Sorry about that.
James C. Fish Jr.
Alright. Thanks.
John J. Morris Jr.
Thank you.
David L. Reed
You.
Operator · Operator
Tammy Zakaria
Q4
Hi. Good morning. Thank you so much, and congrats to both Jim and John. I wanted to follow-up on Toni's question. In hindsight, what are some of the key reasons or factors that drove your volume outlook to fall short this year versus your original expectation of it being up I think There are 2 places where it is probably Tami, a tad softer than we originally anticipated.
John J. Morris Jr.
I mean, clearly, you see some of the volume decline in residential. A lot of that was planned, but it is contributing to the negative volume print. And I think when you look at, there is a little bit of softness in some of the landfill volumes. I mentioned C&D. I think that is actually more a reflection of what is going on in the, in the broader economy. And the other 1 was commercial. And it is not far off what we predicted, I do think some of what we are seeing in the in the macro environment is impacting some of the business formation in the commercial line of business.
Tammy Zakaria
Q4
Understood. that is very helpful. And then, excellent margin performance in the quarter on the healthcare side. As we look into the fourth quarter, are you still expecting health care growth sort of exiting the year with a mid single digit percent type of growth rate?
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, listen. We are really proud about the progress we made in the first half of the year. And then going to this. Into the second half of the year. I know Brent and team are working hard to do 2 things. 1 is continue to make progress in the middle of the p and l, and you have seen the focus on the SG&A line and the progress that they have been able to deliver there in addition to the pricing progress through the end of Q3.
I would tell you we are not gonna take our foot off the gas there. And as Jim mentioned, I think as we start to unpack more and more of this health care business, we see there is a really good strategic investment going forward.
Tammy Zakaria
Q4
Understood. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Faiza Alwy
Q5
Hi. Thank you. Good morning, and congratulations from me as well to both to Jim and to John. I guess, John, I am curious, as you step into the CEO role, how should we think about your strategic focus, priorities, I know you have talked about potentially higher level of solid waste M and A. But curious if there is other, you know, areas of investments that you are thinking about, just kind of what your priorities are. And if anything changes.
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, I think what you have heard from Jim and David and I over the last couple of quarters is 1, certainly being focused on returning cash to shareholders, and we have talked a lot about that I am sure David will get a chance to comment a little bit more on that. We do think now that we have feel like we have turned the corner, if you will, on health care we have got the ability to be a little more aggressive in terms of what we do on the core solid waste side, and we see that as a strategic priority. As referenced in my prepared remarks, what we have done through the year to date, what we expect to close in Q4, we have already got teed up for the first quarter.
Suggest that we have got good runway. And listen, that is a core competency of the organization is to bring in those core solid waste businesses and tuck those in At the same time, I think you will continue to see us build, on the health care business and look for further ways to integrate and take the advantages of cross selling. Addition to some of the operating expense opportunities we have. In that business. And I think other than that, I think you are gonna see us continue. there is not going to be any big shifts in the way, I think, just because Jim's gonna retire here in a few months.
We have all worked together for a long time and built this strategy collectively. So I feel like we have got a terrific path charted that we are gonna continue to pursue.
Faiza Alwy
Q5
Great. Thank you. And then question for David free cash flow. So I know you are saying you are now going to be at the high end of free cash flow guide, and, you know, you have not been specific around where in the guide you land on EBITDA So just curious what is driving that higher free cash flow? Is it timing? And kind of any thoughts or whether that impacts next year?
David L. Reed
Sure. I mean, we are we are very pleased, you know, looking 3 quarters into the year with printing over $3 billion of free cash flow and then obviously the strong almost aspirational number but hitting the strong EBITDA to free cash flow print of 50%, which was really great to see. A lot of that was expected. We have talked a lot about this year being harvesting. So the strong earnings growth the lower capital spending that we have been alluding to for a number of quarters now.
Are playing out as we anticipated. I will say a couple of other areas that have been pleasant surprises. You know, cash taxes was a bit favorable relative to what we thought we were gonna have for this year. And then we have had a nice improvement, a nice sustained improvement in working capital, particularly around accounts payable. And that is been driven by some of our active strategies and vendor management So that is kind of given us a little bit of extra push, in terms of results and expectations for the year.
As we look into the fourth quarter, I do anticipate that we will have sequentially higher CapEx spending which is common as we close out the year. And so from a-- while we are gonna be within our guidance range for capital spending, we are probably gonna be more towards the higher end at that $2.75 billion number as well. So again, really good result for the year. We talked up this being the year of harvest and then returning, cash to shareholders and that is how it is playing out.
Faiza Alwy
Q5
Great. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Analyst
Q6
Hi, good morning. Thanks for taking the question. And yeah, congratulations to both Jim and John on the next phase of your journeys.
James C. Fish Jr.
Thank you, sir. Yes.
Analyst
Q6
Just on the quarter obviously, a really big step up in health care margins as you flagged. Can you just maybe remind us how much of a benefit you have in 2026 from cost synergies? And maybe how much is kind of remaining there And then, do you see this low 20s EBITDA margin to sort of an achievable run rate going forward?
John J. Morris Jr.
Yes, Bryan, we are super pleased with where we are on the margin front. And to your question, I think we still have some room to go there. To your first part of your question, I think mid-2027 right now is. Looks like we are on track to hit the synergy target, which would be a little bit ahead of what we originally planned. Credit to the team. I mean, you know, some of the challenge we faced in the first year, 18 months, we have certainly weathered the storm.
Now the team, like I said, has really seen to hit their stride and gain momentum. So I think midyear, 2027 is when we should be right around that synergy target we have talked about. Got it. Got it. Thanks for that. And then John, I think base CapEx for WM was down to maybe 9.5% this year. Just curious if similar question: if you see that as a sustainable level? Or is there maybe a little bit of a catch up going forward? Any thoughts around sort of fleet age or technology investments could be helpful. Thank you. I will turn it over.
David L. Reed
Yeah.
John J. Morris Jr.
I think, Bryan, on technology, we have got that sort of baked into our capital run-rate now on the fleet side, obviously, we talked about the fact that we have caught up and you will see more steady state there. But I think long term capital run rate's still probably 10% to 10.5%. it is a little bit. it is down a little bit this year relative. I mean, I think it is down 17% for the quarter,, I think, David, year-to-date.
Excuse me. Some of that has to do with, you know, we are slowing. When the slowing. We are completing spending on a lot of sustainability investments. The fleet spends has come down a little bit, but I think long term, 10% to 10.5% is still gonna be the right range for us.
Operator · Operator
Konark Gupta
Q7
Thanks, and I echo best wishes to both John and Jim. Here. First question on m and a. Opportunities. I mean, you guys laid out obviously some near term opportunities in the fourth quarter and maybe early 2027. But I am curious, on your thoughts. In the event of, you know, 1 of the larger players, you know, spinning off some assets, you know, over time, You know, would you guys be interested in any specific pockets of the markets or any specific types of assets in that spin off potentially, or I mean, you guys probably already have a lot of density in various markets you wanna be in, so you probably would pass on some of those opportunities.
John J. Morris Jr.
Yeah. I think the way I would answer, Konark, is if it is certainly solid waste core assets, we would be interested in those. Hard to pick a geography where we would not be more interested. And even on the haz side of the industrial side where we have got assets and services that we could wrap those assets around, we would be interested in that as well. I think the good news is that credit to David and the team that the balance sheet's in great shape. So regardless if it was a smaller 1 or a larger 1, if it fit our strategic lens, it would be something we would certainly be able to pursue.
Konark Gupta
Q7
K. Great. Thanks for that. And then just as a follow-up, the current environment, right, we are in right now, obviously, the fuel price and energy prices keep, like, tripping up. We do not know when the inflation ends and all that. But, I mean, do you think we are in a sustainably. Maybe more sustainably than before? Higher for longer pricing environment and, you know, weaker for longer volume environment. I mean, it is not the trade off that we are playing for the next another 1 year or 2,, maybe.
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, I would tell you, we have obviously historically been able to price through sort of the ebbs and flows of inflationary pressures whether you look at CPI or WST more recently, I think you look at what we. What we have been able to do is certainly maintain across the price spread and actually improve that. Now specific to $6.37 a gallon diesel, Now let's all hope for everybody that is not the case long term and the short term as you heard from us in our prepared remarks and some of the Q and A that we are finding our way to recover that cost broadly across the portfolio.
Konark Gupta
Q7
Yeah. Great. Appreciate the color. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Seth Weber
Q8
Hi, guys. Good morning. I just wanted to follow-up on your comments about the SMB market. Given the strong core pricing, I am wondering if you are seeing any fatigue or higher churn on the just the consumer side? Thank you.
John J. Morris Jr.
Thank you. that is a good question, Seth. I. You know, part of what we. I mentioned is some of the headwind is some, I would call it, deliberate actions we took with some of our national account broker business. And as you can imagine, that is more pronounced when you have a loss there just because of the scale of it, but we feel like we are going to lap that right around the end of Q1. To your point, our churn actually improved about 30 basis points year over year to 9.3%.
So when you look at our pricing, it has not impacted our pricing, and we are seeing, like I said, indicators of commercial line of business actually having a little bit more momentum once we once we lap the national account work. I do think, though, as I mentioned, when you think about what is going on with commercial business formation related to housing construction, etcetera, I do think it is putting a little bit of pressure on that line.
Seth Weber
Q8
Okay. Thank you. And then just a quick follow-up on health care. I think last quarter, you gave us a cross selling number, $32 million of EBITDA. Just wondering if there is an update on that? Thank you.
John J. Morris Jr.
I think it was $38 million, I think, was the number we restated last year for the full year, and we feel good about where we are at now moving into 2027.
Seth Weber
Q8
Got it. Okay. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
Operator · Operator
Noah Kaye
Q9
Thank you for the questions, Jim. Wishing you the very best. And John, congratulations, and same to you. We will miss you, Jim.
James C. Fish Jr.
it is been a pleasure. Thank you, Noah.
Noah Kaye
Q9
Thank you.
David L. Reed
So maybe a question for David here. I must have misheard. Were you saying an answer to the first question asked on the call that you expect EBITDA margins to be up sequentially but modestly down year over year? Correct.
Noah Kaye
Q9
If I-- well, if I plug that in and just take the revenue number, then that actually puts me just below the low end of the EBITDA range. So there may be something wrong we are doing here, but you know, I think that would suggest that you are heading towards the lower end of the guide for the year. So anything that we are getting wrong?
David L. Reed
Well, that is just on the. I am just making the assumption on the fuel, the 40 basis point impact of fuel, but I did highlight some of the, you know, some of the items that depending on how they play out in the quarter will push us up higher in that range as well. that is just fuel isolated.
Noah Kaye
Q9
Yeah. Meaning that meaning that revenues can possibly be higher versus the high end of the range. I am so sorry. I am just getting a little bit confused here.
David L. Reed
it is whether it is, you know, improvement in volumes or strength in our pricing or recycling commodity prices, those will be the things that would move us up the range. Okay.
Noah Kaye
Q9
Okay. Very helpful. And then I think, the commentary on increased landfill costs, coming in the context of AB-28 is interesting. Just broadly, you know, how are you thinking about the landfill operating cost profile and risk mitigation, and risk planning strategies going forward. What do you think that means in terms of, you know, overall industry pricing trends, especially given not only those cost pressures, but, you know, increasing disposal scarcity in certain parts of the country.
Tara J. Hemmer
Well, first and foremost, when you look at landfill operating costs and we are seeing them tick up a bit, in California and in other places. A lot of it driven by leachate. We know how to handle those from an environmental perspective. We know how to process them, and we are gonna continue to do that in an environmentally responsible way. We also know how to pass those costs along to our customers through price increases and recognizing the strategic nature of our assets we have always used a next best alternative analysis on how to price, and that is part of an evolution of our pricing analytics.
And we are gonna use that as we navigate increased operating expenses at our landfills. And by the way, it is not just us. This is an industry wide issue, and so everyone is gonna be faced with some of these same issues across the board. So we are in a strong position, like I said, to deliver on price increase to recoup our costs.
Noah Kaye
Q9
Yep. Makes sense. Thank you very much. Yep. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Sabahat Khan
Q10
Thanks, and good morning, and congrats on both to Jim and John on the on the chapter ahead. Just on the question, I guess, on…. there is been a bit of discussion on the health care side. You know, as you sort of contemplate 2027, not looking for guidance, maybe if you can talk about of the pipeline that you have been building that gives you confidence on maybe accelerating on the growth front there? And just in terms of how the year has played out on the top line, you know, were you initially thinking it would be a bit more late-in-the-year heavy on the on the top line growth? Maybe you can just talk through you know, what is the revenue outlook for that business at this point in the year? Thank you.
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, I think what you saw is some real significant progression from the end of last year through the first half and then in Q3. So as I mentioned earlier, us being close to the sort of solid waste pricing we talked about several quarters ago for us to be there earlier than anticipated is certainly terrific. I think a lot of that is translating into, obviously, the significant EBITDA growth that we have built from the first half going into Q3 and the momentum we built into Q4.
And from a volume perspective, as we said, the 1 unique aspect of some of the volume challenges we have had is when you gain or lose a customer, the tail going in or going out is a little longer. So what we are weathering is, honestly, some losses that we have we have known about. As I mentioned, though, not ready to put a stake in the ground on positive volume for the medical waste side of the house or the secure document destruction, but the trends are improving.
So as we move into 2027., we know that we are gonna continue to see benefits there. When it gets to positive is still a little bit yet to be determined, but we are really happy with the progress the team's making.
Sabahat Khan
Q10
Great. And then just a quick 1 on the broader volume side. With a lot of the construction activity commentary being positive across some of the industrial machinery type names, Are there Are you seeing some positive momentum in some underlying markets, maybe offset by perhaps housing? Maybe you could just break out some of the volume details, particularly on the solid waste side and where there might be some green shoots and where maybe they are the more meaningful offsets that are driving it to be more negative. Thanks.
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, I would say it is a good question because I think when you look, you know, market by market, there is plenty of markets we are in, and I could rattle them off. You could probably come up some of the same low geographies that are still showing really positive growth trends and that is where, you know, Tara and the team were looking to make sure that we got the right assets and we are investing the right way to take advantage of that. You know, housing is still.
Last time I looked is a million 2 and change, which is well down from where it has historically been, and that is part of what you are seeing on balance, I think, through our construction and demo volume I commented, which is down about 4.5% year-to-date. Good news is that we are not tethered to that as much on the roll off side, and I think that is, you know, of the reasons you are seeing our overall roll off for industrial volume continue to be slightly positive.
Tara J. Hemmer
And the interesting thing, you know, we spend a week every quarter with our areas, and 16 of them pretty much across the board are saying, their special waste pipelines are very strong. it is just some of these special waste pipelines have not yet hit, so it is not a question of if. it is more of a question of when. And that really speaks again to where our assets are located and the types of materials that we can take. So we are in a strong position when some of these things start to pop.
John J. Morris Jr.
Certainly, with diesel pricing being what it is and some of the other things that are talked about in the economy, I. We think that some are just taking a wait and see approach and might see some of them later in Q4 or early 2027.
Sabahat Khan
Q10
Okay. Very much.
Operator · Operator
Kevin Chen
Q11
Hey, thanks for taking my question. Just echoing everyone's congratulations to Jim and John onto your new chapters here. I know there is been a lot of questions on health care, but wondering, you know, when you look at the volume trends you are seeing versus the strong pricing you are pushing through, you know, are you seeing an increase in customer churn, or is churn holding, I will call it, flat or static as you push through this pricing and really the volume situation is more maybe more cyclical.
John J. Morris Jr.
So it is a good question, Ken. I think it is interesting because I mentioned the long tail on some of the losses we endured at the end of 25 and 2026. So I almost I almost bifurcate churn between, like, the historical churn we are still fighting our way through and the near term churn. And as I mentioned, we are seeing good trends. Like I said, not we are not saying when we are gonna go positive. But the 1 thing I would point to is if you look at the hospitals in particular, which is a big piece of that revenue on the medical waste side, and you look at what is happening in that sort of same store sales basis a lot of the secular trends that we talked about are showing up in the.
In that hospital group. Where we are seeing the growth there. it is been a little bit of a mixed bag. You folks have looked at it because we have had other things, excuse me, that have been that have been impacting that number. But, again, that is probably 1 area feel, we would have a lot of, we feel encouraged by because those hospitals are growing in and of by themselves. So it is a probably 2 answers to your 1 question, but there is sort of the legacy churn, and then there is a near term churn, and that is why you hear probably a more level of confidence in terms of the trends we are seeing.
Kevin Chen
Q11
Noah. that is, that. that is very helpful. Maybe a second 1 for me, you know, as, as you guys approach the mid-term here, Just anything that you are watching out for that we should be thinking about, you know, whether it is you know, changes in the regulatory environment. You know? And there is been a lot of headlines on, you know, the way sector looking for a broad exemption on PFAS as a passive receiver. Maybe the M&A environment, and may.
Maybe even special waste volumes that Tara talked about. Like, do you think you know, the upcoming election cycle maybe impacts some of the trends you are seeing today or maybe the trends you think will happen in the coming, you know, quarters or 2?
John J. Morris Jr.
Boy, Kevin, that is a loaded question right there, my friend. Listen. On the regulatory front, we have said this, whether it is whether it is Canada or here, it is more prevention or state run other than PFAS. Right? And I think Tara commented earlier, we have been closely watching that. While the rules have not been, totally formulated yet, We feel like, you know, it could be a little bit of a cost headwind to us. But, again, as Tara mentioned, relative to the landfill side, we think that is cost we can pass on to our customers.
We also still believe that there is a big opportunity on the under. Other end of the of the PFAS calculation depending on how the on how the regulations fall. Yeah.
Kevin Chen
Q11
I will I will leave it there, and I appreciate you taking the opportunity to answer that question. Congrats, Jim and John. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Trevor Romeo
Q12
Good morning, and thank you, and my congratulations as well to Jim and John. I will just ask 1, I think for the sake of time on m and a. So sounds like you have had some good activity on new deals that you have signed recently. So maybe are there any details you can give us in terms of, like, regions, asset types, etcetera, on those deals? And then if we think about maybe higher interest rates, and the impact on potential M and A, how does that influence both your preference to do M and A versus maybe the willingness of small operators to sell if that is an incremental headwind to them?
Tara J. Hemmer
So the thing that I would just say on M and A and just to emphasize is these are core solid waste deals where we are gonna bring our machine to bear on driving synergies, whether it is internalization into our landfill assets, or, routing synergies. So as John always uses golf analogies, but straight down the middle of the fairway.
John J. Morris Jr.
Not usually where I hit a buzz.
Tara J. Hemmer
And the other thing I would mention is that you know, there is a lot of room across The US and Canada geographically for us to do deals. And so we do have a robust pipeline right now of deals that we are looking at. David can speak to the interest rate environment and how that is potentially a positive for us.
David L. Reed
Yeah. Yeah. I think we are we are in a really good spot. Obviously, we have you know, deep access to capital. Our balance sheet is in really good shape. You know? Close to 90% of our interest rate exposure is fixed. And so from that standpoint, we are obviously well positioned. Then from a seller's mindset, you know, I do think just higher interest rates might make them more prone to potentially look at exiting, just as they are thinking about recapping or funding growth in their business, the rates that they are probably gonna see are probably, you know, pretty high at this point. So I do think we see that is why we see a fair amount of activity in the market in the pipeline right now.
Trevor Romeo
Q12
that is really helpful. I will leave it there. Thank you. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Adam Fusis
Q13
Hi, good morning, and congrats to both Jim and John. I know we are only in 3Q here, but maybe just conceptually, how are you thinking about the margin algorithm next year It seems like there is a lot of moving pieces between fuel landfill gas continuing to ramp higher, the strong synergy realization in health care. Can you just help us think about the algorithm there?
David L. Reed
Yeah. I mean, it. Obviously, we are not providing guidance, you know, until next quarter, and the visibility as we have been discussing is obviously quite low. But you did highlight on a couple of things that are-- will be a bit, you know, favorable for us if I think about some of the carryover and rollover impact from RNG and from recycling as those plants we get the full run-rate benefit from those. But just given the price and cost dynamic that, you know, we have demonstrated really well this year, we have been north of 50% that we highlighted for this year.
You will continue to see us focus on maintaining that price-to-cost spread. It really comes down to fundamentally just the volume growth and expectations in the business because again, I think on the pricing side, we are going to be able to pass along our cost. And so as I think about that, it is really more of a call on the macro environment, which as we have been highlighting is low visibility. it is a bit muted. But if there is any catalyst there that would help would help spur that growth algorithm.
John J. Morris Jr.
Yeah. The only thing I would add, David, is that, again, we talked a lot about health care, but that also as we exit Q3 and go into Q4, clearly, that is gonna be a benefit to us, Adam, next, in next year.
Adam Fusis
Q13
Great. All clear. And then on the pricing side, I think core price was strong at 5.8% this quarter with yield of 3.4% in collection disposal. I think that spread is just a little higher than the recent range, and it ticked up sequentially. What sort of the mix impacts are impacting that? And what do you view as more of a sustainable level of that core price yield spread going forward?
John J. Morris Jr.
Yeah. I think we have said we have generally been, like, low sixties to 70%. We have ticked up a little bit higher from time to time. To your point, if you break it up and you look at collection, it was somewhere in the neighborhood of the mid sixties. Which is which is about the norm. what is been a little bit more pressured has been on the disposal side. What I would tell you is not to get into the weeds, but where we have looked at some of the volume mix with a few small deals that we closed, which we had planned to close, thinking ADS.
There were a few of the sites that we closed in the quarter. And then some volume shifts out on the West Coast where it tends to be higher priced volume, does not necessarily mean higher profit volume, that is where I see a little bit of the pressure on the disposal side of the equation.
Adam Fusis
Q13
Great. Thanks so much. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
William Grippin
Q14
Appreciate you squeezing me in here. I did wanna come back to some of the volume discussion around the Healthcare Solutions business. I think as of the end of the second quarter, I think you had made significant progress toward getting all your customers a clean bill. And we had anticipated that might help drive a deceleration or an easing of some of this customer churn you have been seeing. I am just curious, maybe if you could parse out just some of the trends on the volume side between sort of churn versus just overall market volume trends. If customers starting to get those clean bills has had the desired impact?
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, I think I think what you heard was, on the price side, clearly, they are seeing the value in the services we are providing across the, across the portfolio. Again, in terms of the volume trends, what I would tell you is both if you think-- if you bifurcate the business between the health care side traditional health care, and the secure document destruction, we are seeing improving trends in both. I would tell you the SID business is probably tracking a little bit quicker than the medical waste business, but the important point is that they are both trending in the right direction.
And as I said, half joking, I am not ready to tell you. We are not ready to say when those will go, but we feel good about the trajectory on both of those, both those segments within health care.
Tara J. Hemmer
I think what is important is the way that we are looking at this is looking at quarter over quarter sequential improvement. And that is what we are expecting moving forward.
William Grippin
Q14
Got it. Appreciate that. And then just, so switching over to the RNG business. EBITDA margin just a bit weaker sequentially quarter on quarter. Was that just driven by, I guess, some of the sort of start up and slightly lower revenue you had flagged? Or was it just contribution from the New York facility that was brought online diluting overall margin? And how should we think about sort of the right range for that business going forward?
David L. Reed
The 2 reasons for the sequential drop from Q3 of 26 to. From Q3 26 versus Q2 is 2 things. 1, we sold more volume in the voluntary market in Q3. Which would be at a lower price per MMBtu. that is the first item. And the second is we did have some start up costs that flowed through the p and l. So it is 1 of the reasons why I always point you to looking at margins in this business and for the full year because we can have some lumpiness quarter to quarter.
William Grippin
Q14
Yep. Makes sense. Appreciate it. Thank you, and congrats on retirement, Jim. Thank you.
John J. Morris Jr.
Thanks.
Operator · Operator
James Schumm
Q15
Hey, thank you. Most of my questions have been asked, but just wanted to echo my congratulations to Jim and John. And maybe just 1 for me. So you kind of hit the goal for G&A for WM Healthcare at. You know, you are around 15%. Can you speak to what the updated goal would be now?
John J. Morris Jr.
I would say it would be better than 15.2%. Credit to the team. They worked really hard. And I will tell you when we set that goal a handful of quarters ago to get there, it seemed like a taller hill to climb, and credit to the to the whole team. They have done a really nice job. And what I can tell you is where we are gonna land, I do not know. We have talked about could it get as low as the core business? Is it gonna stay at 15?
I would tell you we still have room to go. And I think we will have a probably a better view of that as we get into the beginning of the year and give guidance for next year.
James Schumm
Q15
But better is the short.
John J. Morris Jr.
Right. John, you know, I do not know.
James C. Fish Jr.
Maybe it was 2 years ago. I think David said there is no structural reason why WM Healthcare's G&A as a percentage of sales would not or could not approach the level of the corporate level of 9 to 10%. You have had the business for 2 years.
John J. Morris Jr.
Do you do you still believe that to be the case? What I would tell you is I do think. that is all joking aside. there is certainly opportunity there, and yeah, I remember David's comments a handful of years ago. I would tell you, the only place that I see a structural difference really when you look at some of the customer level attention that is required. I mentioned the hospitals, for instance. You know, there is probably more of a customer service intensity there.
Than other parts of the of the core solid waste business. So that would be the 1 area. But if you look at it, if you look at it, James, in the field business, I think, yes, that probably is a true statement where you see a little bit of a premium is obviously the unique nature of some of the services and the regulatory challenges that we are helping to provide services for these customers would be 1 difference.
David L. Reed
And I think just from an investment thesis, you know, the synergies that we underwrote with the deal were going to get us to 17% and we are already past that. So I think from that goalpost that we are we look really well. But to John's point, we see further room to go.
James Schumm
Q15
Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Stephanie Benjamin Moore
Q16
Great. Really appreciate it. A 2 for me real quick. Your internalization rate reached just over 72% this quarter. that is pretty much near record levels. In the past, I think you talked about a mid-70% range. was the historical ceiling. Just wanted to get your thoughts on structurally higher internalization rates and what this can mean in terms of, I guess, overall disposal margin assumptions.
Tara J. Hemmer
Well, there is there is 2 things that are driving our internalization rate higher. 1 of them we talked about last quarter related to recycling. You know, our recycling volumes are up, and we are seeing more volumes be really directed to our recycling plants. So that is a key piece as we brought those investments online. We also are continuing to look at through our routing algorithms Are we routing our material to the best spot?
And we are able to then redirect some material into our own assets that we might have otherwise been sending to third parties. So this is something that we are constantly looking at. And we will definitely have a broader positive impact on price too.
Stephanie Benjamin Moore
Q16
Understood. And then I did wanna follow-up on a prior question just in terms of labor and productivity savings. So I think in the past, you have talked about you know, I think close to 5 thousand position reductions through you know, essentially not having to rehire or fill the exit positions. Given all that you have done in terms of investing in productivity and technology, AI opportunity, how can you think about just incremental labor demand over time? Thanks. Appreciate it.
Tara J. Hemmer
This is something we spend a lot of time talking about. Especially our collection business. Our collection business is very labor intensive when you look at our drivers and helpers, and it is 1 of the reasons why we made the transition to automated side loaders from rear loaders for safety reasons and also labor reasons. We are absolutely looking at how can we bring technologies to the forefront of our operations to reduce labor dependence given that there is going to be a labor shortage long term.
And the best example of that is the work that we are doing with the Caterpillar pilots on our landfills piloting remote heavy equipment, and we are doing that at 1 of our hazardous landfills. And a facility in Arizona. And if we can expand on that, you can imagine where we can improve the overall experience for new employees and really tap into another labor pool that we might not have otherwise been able to tap into.
And then, over time, continue to look at structurally lowering our cost. So we are looking at a whole host of things. This is something that is incredibly important to us and something that is going to help us transform how we operate over the next 10 years.
Stephanie Benjamin Moore
Q16
Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Tobey Sommer
Q17
Thank you. In the health care arena, what is the pricing outlook appear to be this year and then the next as hospitals are sort of seeing an increase in uncompensated care pressuring margins.
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, I think, Tobey, we worked hard, obviously, as I mentioned, to get to where we are. And we think over the long term, we think the pricing algorithm for the health care business can approximate the solid waste business. And I think we are taking a same view and will continue to take the same view about where we can build spread between our cost to serve and price. And I think what you saw in the quarter was, you know, almost 500 basis points of margin expansion, partly fueled by SG&A coming down, partly fueled by pricing.
And as I mentioned, I think we are starting to see some volume trends that are encouraging, still negative. And, you know, the 1 thing I would add to that is when you think about the health care business and the and the acquisition of what was Stericycle, there is obviously the short term gains that we are making, but the more secular benefits of owning that business, particularly the med. On the medical waste side, are more along term.
Right? If you look at. Was 1 of things that attracted us to the business handful of years ago was the fact that was an area where we think we are gonna see outsized growth over the longer term. And in that regard, we are gonna be patient, and that volume, we think, gonna accrue to our benefit.
Tobey Sommer
Q17
And thank you. And the landfill requirements that are increasing expenses in California, do you anticipate those changes proliferating, nationally or being confined to that market?
Tara J. Hemmer
Well, to clarify, the legislation was just passed, so they need to go through some rulemaking. So it is still early innings there in what is going to happen in California. We do not anticipate that being widespread, but something obviously that we are tracking and you know, if it does get traction in other states, we are well positioned to respond.
Tobey Sommer
Q17
Thank you. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
Shlomo Rosenbaum
Q18
Hi. Good morning. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. Want to ask a little bit on the diesel fuel assumptions that you might have in your guidance. Like, what is the price that you are expecting for the fourth quarter? And just in general, how are you thinking about the general inflationary impact as it goes into 2027.? Are you seeing anything? Were you expecting that to creep into your labor costs in terms of how you are thinking of positioning the business, you know, and what you are gonna need for pricing, if you can just address those 2 issues, and then I have 1 follow-up.
David L. Reed
Sure. In terms of Q4 for diesel prices, we are assuming about 40% increase over Q4 of last year. I think it is around 5 little over $5.50 per gallon for diesel. But in terms of your comment about inflation that is trickling down outside of just fuel, our We are seeing it in third-party costs. But that is. Our fuel surcharge program is designed to recover from that aspect as well. it is not just recovering our direct fuel cost.
Tara J. Hemmer
The only the only thing I would just say on that is, you know, when you see increased diesel costs like we did from August to September, a spike at 80¢ a gallon You have heard from us that there is a approximately on average a 1-month lag in our fuel surcharge. So you will see some timing differences on recovery. This is something I think that we are all learning to navigate. And how this has been interesting to follow related to what is happening with diesel.
Shlomo Rosenbaum
Q18
Okay. And then maybe just shifting back to the health care side. In terms of the improvement in the EBITDA, and the SG&A, could you talk a little bit more about how much of the improvement came from actually getting the technology to work and, removal of the manual processes that were in place and how much might have come from other areas. Maybe you can just give us a little bit of an insight as to you know, what got improved so much in the course of the quarter.
John J. Morris Jr.
Well, I think, first and foremost, I think the fact that we are getting pricing that is more commensurate with our cost to serve and trying to build a spread there. Would be 1 big move we have made. To the point, Jim made this comment on many calls going back to the acquisition that there was a lot more manual effort being put in the early days to make sure that we were improving and getting to the point where folks were getting an accurate bill.
Obviously, while there is still a little bit of that happening, the most important thing is our folks are getting an accurate bill They are paying their bills at a normalized rate as opposed to what it was. To your point, we have taken out some of that SG&A, and we are getting closer to automating more of that process. But I would. that is certainly a piece of the-- slum over-- we have we have been able to gain some traction.
Shlomo Rosenbaum
Q18
Alright. Thank you. Thank you.
Operator · Operator
James C. Fish Jr.
Okay. Well, just a couple quick comments here. Thanks. First of all, thanks for joining as always today, and I truly appreciate all the well wishes and the congratulations. I really do I am hoping that maybe I will run-in some of you up in Jackson Hole fly fishing. We will see. But I would normally say at the end of call, I will talk to you next quarter. And today, I am gonna say John and Tara and David will talk to you next quarter. Thank you very much.
Operator · Operator
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